(;GM[1]FF[4]SZ[19]AP[SmartGo:2.5.0.0]CA[UTF-8]
GN[2010 Cotsen Open - Round 1 Board 1 - Rui Wang 7d vs Juyong Ko 7d]
PW[Rui Wang ]WR[7d]
PB[Juyong Koh]BR[7d]
EV[2010 Cotsen Open]RO[1]
DT[2010-09-18]
PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]
KM[8.0]
RE[B+ 2.5]
US[Chris Garlock]
RU[NZ]ST[2]
TM[3600.0]OT[5x45 byo-yomi]
AN[Jennie Shen 2P]
C[2010 Cotsen Open
Round 1, Board 1
September 18, 2010
Los Angeles, CA
W: Rui Wang 7d
B: Juyong Koh 7d
Commentary: Jennie Shen 2P
Broadcast on KGS; recorded by Chris Garlock
]
;B[cp];W[pq];B[pc];W[qe]
C[Javaness [2d\]: hello
Jennie [2p\]: usually if two komoku facing each other, who approaches first, who has the advantage
Jennie [2p\]: that's why white takes this
Jennie [2p\]: but it's pretty good for black to take 3 corners
]
;B[dd];W[od];B[oc];W[nd];B[mc];W[ep];B[eq];W[fq];B[dq];W[fp];B[cn];W[jp]
C[Jennie [2p\]: hi
];B[qn]
C[RoundTuit [2k\]: hi
Jennie [2p\]: good morning
maciek [2d\]: hi Jennie big thanks for comments!
johnny [4k\]: B going for all 4 corners : )
Jennie [2p\]: np
Jennie [2p\]: let's look at it from the beginning
Jennie [2p\]: cash vs moyo
kago [1d\]: cash
Javaness [2d\]: moyo
ihatelag [8k\]: both?
blackstork [?\]: What do you think of tenuki on the right side after n17?
Jennie [2p\]: black has cash, white has moyo
]
(;W[ql]
C[Jennie [2p\]: white continues to build the moyo
Jennie [2p\]: pincer, continue to build the moyo
]
;B[qq]
C[Jennie [2p\]: what's the next move?
maciek [2d\]: q4
Jennie [2p\]: i haven't seen it yet
ZeroWave [7k\]: q6 ?
kago [1d\]: r4
maciek [2d\]: to built a nice joseki wall
Jennie [2p\]: r4 is joseki
True [1k\]: r4..?
Javaness [2d\]: R2
True [1k\]: Juyong is strong
]
(;W[qp];B[pp]
C[Jennie [2p\]: this way
Jennie [2p\]: white has to lose one side
];W[rq]
;B[qr];W[po];B[op];W[qo];B[rr]
C[Jennie [2p\]: this joseki, white lost the bottom
True [1k\]: after q4 joseki b go f7?
]
(;W[mp]
C[Jennie [2p\]: F7 is not urgent
Jennie [2p\]: real game
];B[oo];W[pn]
C[Jennie [2p\]: he is trying to get both sides
];B[qc]
C[Jennie [2p\]: what's the follow up for this R17 move?
True [1k\]: Q15?
maciek [2d\]: r14?
Jennie [2p\]: R13
]
(;W[on];B[oq]LB[no:B][mp:A]
C[AetherSoul [4k\]: lol i've never heard so much use of the word annoying before, it makes this game seem like a toddler's game
johnny [4k\]: so...W q12?
Jennie [2p\]: the bottom is similar to the joseki, just A is at B in the joseki
Jennie [2p\]: :)
Jennie [2p\]: annoying is Java's favorite word :)
True [1k\]: is this better than at B?
True [1k\]: looks like it
Jennie [2p\]: it's hard to say
]
;W[of]
C[Jennie [2p\]: he fixed it here :)
True [1k\]: Urgent ?
ZeroWave [7k\]: becaue of the follow up it seemes so imho
True [1k\]: hm
giedrius [11k\]: sake...:)
Jennie [2p\]: he has to fix the invasion at R13, otherwise white gets nothing on the right if black gets R13
Acemi [?\]: getting r17 in sente seems very nice for black
Jennie [2p\]: i think this game, juyong likes cash
Jennie [2p\]: i don't know if white is a moyo person or not
True [1k\]: jennie you've played juyong b4 right? u should know his style well (:
Jennie [2p\]: but so far, moyo vs cash
kago [1d\]: he is a fighter
Jennie [2p\]: fighters like moyo :)
Jennie [2p\]: guess the next move?
maciek [2d\]: Jennie u are cash or moyo?
ZeroWave [7k\]: C14?
True [1k\]: Q9?
Jennie [2p\]: i like cash
Acemi [?\]: c15 
kago [1d\]: cash is easier to spend
Rammstein2 [-\]: in game cash to?
Rammstein2 [-\]: too*
Jennie [2p\]: can't find a good point to invade the right
True [1k\]: territory
maciek [2d\]: me too^^
Jennie [2p\]: cash = territory
]
;B[df]
C[Rammstein2 [-\]: i know
];W[dp];B[cq]
C[Jennie [2p\]: after D14, N16 gets so big
Jennie [2p\]: i think white needs to get M15
johnny [4k\]: W f17?
]
(;W[le]
C[True [1k\]: Looks like border of 2 moyos
Jennie [2p\]: he heard it
True [1k\]: or something like that
Jennie [2p\]: :)
maciek [2d\]: reducing move now?
JohnMcLane [4k\]: R13 black
True [1k\]: why white d4-c3 exchange?
True [1k\]: don't they only play it when black invades around h2 ?
Jennie [2p\]: white invade is too early
Jennie [2p\]: right now white is build the moyo
blackstork [?\]: Please leave the opinions to jennie.
johnny [4k\]: cool
johnny [4k\]: timing is everything
fly [1d\]: what are black's choices now?
wjkgs1: r9
OzzO [3k\]: K15?
Acemi [?\]: doesnt the game turn to center fight with this move then?
True [1k\]: r9 too deep?
Magister7 [7k\]: k16
kago [1d\]: r9 = suicide
Jennie [2p\]: what do you guys like as black now
Magister7 [7k\]: k16
Aur [1d\]: d10?
N4KED [2d\]: black has 4 corners
True [1k\]: lol
OzzO [3k\]: K15 for b?
Acemi [?\]: n5 
AetherSoul [4k\]: i think black needs some influence
Jennie [2p\]: yes, he should take tengen :)
grooviest [8k\]: c9
maciek [2d\]: e17 m17 d10 ?
ZoOo2D [2d\]: k15 ?
MrTortoise [4k\]: j18
kowalli [6k\]: c11?
N4KED [2d\]: :)
MrTortoise [4k\]: j16 sry
Jennie [2p\]: tengen is one choice for black
tuerda [1d\]: K6 I think
Aur [1d\]: k10 looks nice >.>
kago [1d\]: b attacks bottom area
True [1k\]: tengen for psychological effects too? :D
tuerda [1d\]: tengen also sounds like it might be reasonable
ibd [5k?\]: tengen a bit lazy
johnny [4k\]: B d10
tuerda [1d\]: but if around tengen then maybe L10 or M10?
MrTortoise [4k\]: j18 or f7
Acemi [?\]: I would go for n10 if wanna invade center
Aur [1d\]: d10 seems good imo too
MrTortoise [4k\]: j16 lol or f7
N4KED [2d\]: can he play crazy like e10?
OzzO [3k\]: B15 for b? i
Jennie [2p\]: e10 seems a little slow
True [1k\]: if w tkes tengen though
True [1k\]: looks hard for black
fly [1d\]: k7?
Jennie [2p\]: F7 is another choice
tuerda [1d\]: I'm calling K10
Jennie [2p\]: he can also be super calm and play M17
tuerda [1d\]: I mean L10
maciek [2d\]: f7 ?
Jennie [2p\]: it's hard to say which is the best
Jennie [2p\]: depends on the player's style
True [1k\]: m17? isn't that a bit slow?
fly [1d\]: Jennie said, "calm", not slow
tuerda [1d\]: M17 is slow, but it is the only move on the top side
Jennie [2p\]: M17 feels slow, but some people like to get enough cash then jump in
tuerda [1d\]: very honte
Javaness [2d\]: M17 is annoying
flowSthead [8k\]: lol
AetherSoul [4k\]: lol
True [1k\]: :<
maciek [2d\]: i like m17
Jennie [2p\]: Javaness is annoying again :)
Acemi [?\]: m3 looks fun also
tuerda [1d\]: M3 off target no?
tuerda [1d\]: w can just ignore that
Jennie [2p\]: well, it's hard to decide, i don't see an obvious move that i like
]
;B[ki]
C[maciek [2d\]: what is your move now Jennie?
];W[lc];B[mb]
C[Jennie [2p\]: close tengen
maciek [2d\]: :)
Jennie [2p\]: close to tengen
tuerda [1d\]: heh, L11 instead of L10
tuerda [1d\]: I was one space off
Ceausescu [1k\]: maybe better than tengen.
Jennie [2p\]: that was my first suggestion :)
fly [1d\]: and w played b's "calm" move
tuerda [1d\]: well, if b did not take it w would
Jennie [2p\]: he has to judge if tengen is deep enough and if you go deeper, is the attack severe or not
GuitarHero [3d\]: probe at c16 is good ?
Jennie [2p\]: J11, i think 
Jennie [2p\]: for white now
bstem: no pros in the tournament or are they all kicked out?
maciek [2d\]: i think he will tenuki a l11 move
Jennie [2p\]: black has to pay for it if he jumps in too deep
Jennie [2p\]: no pros in the tournament
kago [1d\]: e7?
Jennie [2p\]: this is the round 1
Ceausescu [1k\]: but alot of7d.
GuitarHero [3d\]: n11 looks tempting
Jennie [2p\]: if i play white, j11 no thinking
tuerda [1d\]: I think I would play something around D10 now
tuerda [1d\]: hmmm
tuerda [1d\]: ok
maciek [2d\]: d13 possible now?
Jennie [2p\]: if white goes N11
Path [11k\]: How many players are in the tournament?
Acemi [?\]: white loves cash so n11 
grooviest [8k\]: L9?
Ceausescu [1k\]: L11 kinda invites w to play j11
Jennie [2p\]: it's too soft
MrTortoise [4k\]: f7
GuitarHero [3d\]: I see, it's soft yes
tuerda [1d\]: if white plays N11 hen L11 N11 exchange is good for black no?
rsun [2d\]: n11: not enough territory
deerpark: if b had gone to k11, what wld you reply, Jennie?
Jennie [2p\]: just N11 is not enough for white
Jennie [2p\]: if K11, still might cap
Jennie [2p\]: white needs to attack
rsun [2d\]: b is everywhere solid, and tengen stone is light, hard for white
Jennie [2p\]: just enclose is not wise
Ceausescu [1k\]: he has what it takes to attack
Ceausescu [1k\]: why not attack?
tuerda [1d\]: I agree with rsun, I think black looks better
maciek [2d\]: is any other way to attack than direcly answering by cap move?
Totti10 [3k\]: b much better'
]
;W[jh]
C[True [1k\]: o
GuitarHero [3d\]: hmmm
N4KED [2d\]: lol
True [1k\]: theres r answer maciek
True [1k\]: (:
tuerda [1d\]: here we go!
rsun [2d\]: w needs to profit from attacking, but it's unclear how she can profit
Javaness [2d\]: K12 is so greedy
GuitarHero [3d\]: bad shape
Jennie [2p\]: i don't quite get this move
GuitarHero [3d\]: black will just k11 , right ?
DanceNGo [1d\]: lol
croc [5d\]: w D-7 better?
Jennie [2p\]: he is not get black in also not making cash
Shaomi [3d\]: maybe white will appproach at f17 later
N4KED [2d\]: b swimming in an ocean of whiteness
]
;B[ji]
C[rsun [2d\]: I think w wants to enclose upper side, but with m18 open, it may not work...
]
;W[ii]
C[Jennie [2p\]: if black hane J10
Jennie [2p\]: what's white's follow up?
True [1k\]: k10?
maciek [2d\]: double hane!
GuitarHero [3d\]: cut ?
tuerda [1d\]: I would almost cut directly
Jennie [2p\]: cut
]
;B[kh]
C[True [1k\]: w00t
GuitarHero [3d\]: with k10 ?
Jennie [2p\]: yes, cut
AurelienC [4d\]: of course cut, w got shisho
GuitarHero [3d\]: so black must play j9 later ?
DanceNGo [1d\]: whats shisho
tuerda [1d\]: shisho means ladder
N4KED [2d\]: staircase
tuerda [1d\]: same thing
Jennie [2p\]: this feels like white is eating
tuerda [1d\]: uh oh
True [1k\]: eating? o-o
RoundTuit [2k\]: shicho
Jennie [2p\]: eat=eat stones
True [1k\]: oh lol
Jennie [2p\]: eat =kill
AurelienC [4d\]: k11, is not it too heavy ? 
GuitarHero [3d\]: yes, making white shape :)
wjkgs1: black die possible?
Javaness [2d\]: eat nuts
True [1k\]: eat= kil in chinese i forgot XD
GuitarHero [3d\]: ^^
Ceausescu [1k\]: jennie what do you think about k12? better than cap?
Jennie [2p\]: they like to use eat instead of kill :) i copied them
True [1k\]: lolol
maciek [2d\]: i like j12 now, but is it too soft?
Acemi [?\]: l13 
Jennie [2p\]: i don't have K12 feeling
Jennie [2p\]: it can be severe
N4KED [2d\]: in spanish they say eat instead of kill
killuah [4k\]:       15j
killuah [4k\]: ?
kostuek [-\]: o11
fly [1d\]: can either player actually read this?
GuitarHero [3d\]: j12 is solid
Jennie [2p\]: it looks pretty severe
True [1k\]: Aren't the players
DanQ [4k\]: mangiare
True [1k\]: sitting down
True [1k\]: at a table
Acemi [?\]: is this live game now?
Jennie [2p\]: if white nobi K13
rsun [2d\]: I feel that b is a bit heavy
Jennie [2p\]: black hane J10
DanceNGo [1d\]: orly? u dont say
Jennie [2p\]: white can cut
Ceausescu [1k\]: it feels that.. b gains more from this exchance.
johnny [4k\]: i'm getting hungry
GuitarHero [3d\]: if this happens , then black will die ?
tuerda [1d\]: I have no idea how to answer that as black
Jennie [2p\]: i don't think black will die
GuitarHero [3d\]: or is there still an easy way to make shape ?
Jennie [2p\]: i don't see what else can white do now
]
(;W[jg]
C[DanceNGo [1d\]: if B jumps L14, can't w cut at L13?
Jennie [2p\]: still nobi, only move
DanceNGo [1d\]: nvm
DanceNGo [1d\]: yea ur right
wjkgs1: too dangerous
Daisey [1k\]: just J10 ?
tuerda [1d\]: the hane looks very dangrous
]
;B[jk]
C[tuerda [1d\]: yes, I think I might have played something like this
True [1k\]: It really amazes me how high level players can live in those moyos
]
;W[ij]
C[True [1k\]: m8?
Aur [1d\]: m9 
tuerda [1d\]: N9
croc [5d\]: m-8 maybe
killuah [4k\]: l8?
grooviest [8k\]: m9?
True [1k\]: 5dan agrees with me? :D
AurelienC [4d\]: if you can't live in a moyo, it means it is too small
GuitarHero [3d\]: I agree with m8 :)
Jennie [2p\]: :P
True [1k\]: lol nice 1 aure
GuitarHero [3d\]: but N9 = classic idea ?
Aur [1d\]: n9 is good
OzzO [3k\]: M9?
Tasky [1k\]: is there a commentary here?
johndoe69 [1k?\]: N9 to sac 3 stones?
AurelienC [4d\]: n9 does not feel like a good shape
maciek [2d\]: m8 is my move
]
(;B[ll]
C[DanceNGo [1d\]: oh this wasnt the game?
Jennie [2p\]: the game
Javaness [2d\]: isn't it good to save every stone?
True [1k\]: M8 is game though
AurelienC [4d\]: Java, it's not sabaki then
fly [1d\]: Javaness! Corner!
johnny [4k\]: p12 too much for B?
grooviest [8k\]: loaded question!
Jennie [2p\]: haha
Jennie [2p\]: corner
Javaness [2d\]: :(
fly [1d\]: :)
ibd [5k?\]: :D
wjkgs1: w no terri now
Shaomi [3d\]: n10 
tuerda [1d\]: this is a frightenning move
]
(;W[lj]
C[fly [1d\]: your first thought
]
(;B[lk]
C[Jennie [2p\]: he played here
Jennie [2p\]: hmm
]
(;W[mj];B[ik];W[hk]
(;B[im]
C[Manudu92 [1k\]: B devlepo moyo
];W[hl]
C[maciek [2d\]: white
];B[kn]LB[ih:A][hj:B]
C[kis [7k\]: b better off?
Jennie [2p\]: i don't think white can kill black
Jennie [2p\]: but white still has the right side, it's not bad for white
grooviest [8k\]: o5 ...
kis [7k\]: but b has 4 corners
kostuek [-\]: c12
True [1k\]: l5?
largehc [1k?\]: w can experience difficult fights on the left side this way
Acemi [?\]: is this the game at this position?
kis [7k\]: 4 corners plus kife in the center  == b win??
Jennie [2p\]: yes, real game
tuerda [1d\]: ah
True [1k\]: not necessarily
Javaness [2d\]: white's wall in the middle is annoying
tuerda [1d\]: I think w will have many options on the left
True [1k\]: I mean if black has four 3 points corners
tuerda [1d\]: because of J10 stones
True [1k\]: and a 2 eye centre group..
Acemi [?\]: cant black go for h4 if he keeps pushing down
Jennie [2p\]: but white's wall is not very strong
cutter [2k\]: i definately prefer black here, but white  can still win
Jennie [2p\]: i think it's easier situation for black
Daisey [1k\]: just because ter vs moyo Jennie?
Jennie [2p\]: there are two cuts for white's wall
rsun [2d\]: w thickness not useful
True [1k\]: w's wall has problems
tuerda [1d\]: my style here fits w better but I agree b probably an easier time of it
Manudu92 [1k\]: w many problems, B stable
fly [1d\]: what must w do to win now?
]
(;W[or]
C[Jennie [2p\]: here, the real game
True [1k\]: oh?
tuerda [1d\]: hmmm
]
;B[nr]
C[tuerda [1d\]: w wants O5 sente I suppose
Alast [12k\]: make more points than b :D
Jennie [2p\]: trying to take advantage
Acemi [?\]: white want O5
Jennie [2p\]: yes
Jennie [2p\]: but here, not really, i mean white didn't really get something
muvick [2k\]: anyway p2 was too bad
True [1k\]: doesn't looks like w can o5 in sente
cutter [2k\]: looks like whites bottom just got hurt
maciek [2d\]: i think white plan is o3 now
True [1k\]: and black can go into bottom easier
Acemi [?\]: and he let black get into side easily
]
;W[jn];B[jm]
C[tuerda [1d\]: O5 will be a nice point for white but I feel this might be a high price to pay for it
True [1k\]: Or is it a hidden tesuji???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
]
;W[jo]
C[Jennie [2p\]: hmm
True [1k\]: o6 now?
fly [1d\]: w still aiming at center b stones?
Jinni [3k\]: kill kill
grooviest [8k\]: w wants to kill centre
True [1k\]: no chance 
True [1k\]: w has to
True [1k\]: ?
Hangovers [2k\]: where did w gone wrong - i mean he capped as Jennie propsed
True [1k\]: not rly
True [1k\]: he diagonaled
True [1k\]: shoulder hit*
muvick [2k\]: if he wants why he strenghten it?
Hangovers [2k\]: k
Acemi [?\]: are they playing a short time game?
maciek [2d\]: n6 now?
USGO1 [-\]: time remaining:
Jennie [2p\]: real game
blackstork [?\]: n4 seems on the wrong point for w
]
(;B[ko]
C[True [1k\]: Al of black's territory too secure
Jennie [2p\]: black's move
Jennie [2p\]: building two eyes?
maciek [2d\]: :))
Javaness [2d\]: black is trying to kill K4
]
(;W[kp]
C[cutter [2k\]: i love keima nets
];B[no]
C[Jennie [2p\]: hehe
True [1k\]: ><
cutter [2k\]: ppl dont see them coming in my lvl :)
True [1k\]: lol
True [1k\]: Sandbagger! go away!
True [1k\]: XD
rsun [2d\]: w lost
True [1k\]: tesuji time for white
cutter [2k\]: w shouldnt have tried to kill
cutter [2k\]: greedy white
icanflylol [5k\]: he gon do something fancy now
Manudu92 [1k\]: nobi is it real game
Manudu92 [1k\]: ?
True [1k\]: If white don't try to kill then what would w do
kostuek [-\]: o5 last game move
tuerda [1d\]: p2 is now looking like absolute loss for w no?
rsun [2d\]: w gonna d15 now
Tobamf [5k?\]: @true: make more points than black?
Manudu92 [1k\]: ok thx
cutter [2k\]: the aji around j10 looks bad for w
maciek [2d\]: m6?:)
]
(;W[nl]
C[cutter [2k\]: attack to make profit
cutter [2k\]: thats what
];B[mh]
C[True [1k\]: That's what w was trying to do i think o:
icanflylol [5k\]: seal territory in sente
killuah [4k\]: but b still doesnt have much territory 
cutter [2k\]: he created weaknesses
tuerda [1d\]: n12 nice move
beerslayer [-\]: this is toogood for w
killuah [4k\]: w f17?
True [1k\]: Eh?
]
;W[ni]
C[Mdx [7k\]: can't white cut now?
tuerda [1d\]: now b connects
Tobamf [5k?\]: wow, I keep guessing a lot of these moves
muvick [2k\]: h6 
Tobamf [5k?\]: alot for me (2%)
profan [7k?\]: isnt n6 necessary?
kostuek [-\]: gooote
rsun [2d\]: b e17 now
Shenron [1d\]: no way he connecst in gote
Manudu92 [1k\]: n5
tuerda [1d\]: he will die if he doesnt no?
maciek [2d\]: white have 40 points on right side?
Mdx [7k\]: h6 can cut white?
True [1k\]: Around that I think
True [1k\]: Maybe bit less
tuerda [1d\]: yes something like 40 on the right
Magister7 [7k\]: o6
]
;B[nn]
C[Jennie [2p\]: i like black now
True [1k\]: jennie is there a tesuji to hurt black here?
Jennie [2p\]: to hurt where?
RyuuGan [1k\]: n2 mb for w?
True [1k\]: Something in centre?
beerslayer [-\]: i think b shapes too solid
croc [5d\]: who is better now
RyuuGan [1k\]: or somewhere on top or left side
Jennie [2p\]: white has 30+ on the right
beerslayer [-\]: i smell aji for b fee fi fo fum if w doesnt make another move on right
True [1k\]: B has big corners
Jennie [2p\]: +the bottom, 50
tuerda [1d\]: assuming that stays as it is through yose
Jennie [2p\]: but no more potential 
]
;W[db]
C[cutter [2k\]: b has better prospects than w
profan [7k?\]: d17 
];B[cc]
;W[fc]
C[True [1k\]: That looks urgent
ikami [5d\]: p2 is a big loss
];B[ci]
C[cutter [2k\]: p2 now useless yep
Jennie [2p\]: but still close game
True [1k\]: f15 for w?
maciek [2d\]: i dont like c11
maciek [2d\]: c11 so important?
Jennie [2p\]: c11 is solid
True [1k\]: w is thick
True [1k\]: in centre
Jennie [2p\]: nothing to develope on the left
Jennie [2p\]: just try to get cash
True [1k\]: $$
Jennie [2p\]: c11 is biggest area on the board
]
;W[eh]
C[grooviest [8k\]: doh! was going to say e13
];B[dh]
C[markjgc [15k\]: I was going to day d10
DanceNGo [1d\]: f14 :D
Bruno [1d\]: there is no way to reduce c 11 area?
DanceNGo [1d\]: no nvm
maciek [2d\]: white will take more in center than black on the left i think
tuerda [1d\]: b drawing the mouth of a left-up smiley face
Bruno [1d\]: safely invade?
beerslayer [-\]: i think w can win this by about seven points
grooviest [8k\]: protects h10 cut
True [1k\]: I like b 
kis [7k\]: b l18?
]
;W[ei]
C[Magister7 [7k\]: b has all four corners, 1 side, and part of the middle
cutter [2k\]: i think b has it easier
markjgc [15k\]: I like b better than w too
tuerda [1d\]: astonishing that you can count that close at this stage beerslayer
Magister7 [7k\]: b wins
OzzO [3k\]: F14 for b?
rsun [2d\]: g17!
cutter [2k\]: b can play safe and strong
cutter [2k\]: w has to mix things up
Magister7 [7k\]: (barring terrible mistke)
Jennie [2p\]: i think the situation is a little better for black
]
;B[dk]
C[beerslayer [-\]: beer helps with such wild counting ^_^
Jennie [2p\]: :)
tuerda [1d\]: the slaying thereof?
beerslayer [-\]: plus having watched about 4000 or more of these games
Magister7 [7k\]: a "little" better
maciek [2d\]: f14 now?
polonius [10k\]: juyong is pretty strong, still no match for hu ziyang
Magister7 [7k\]: i am only 7 k, but it looks to me like b is destroying
rsun [2d\]: m18 is big
Magister7 [7k\]: imho
tuerda [1d\]: it looks like b leads
tuerda [1d\]: to me at least
markjgc [15k\]: could b play at j17?
Jennie [2p\]: we started late, almost lunch time, now it's 1.06pm, no lunch for everyone yet
tuerda [1d\]: not if its not his turn markjgc
Javaness [2d\]: they can eat stones instead of lunch
maciek [2d\]: is it a yose already Jennie?:)
Jennie [2p\]: sort of, but the top and the bottom are not done yet
Alast [12k\]: could white try f 1 to create territoy? looks to me quite nice potential, regarding to whites position right now
Alast [12k\]: f14
]
;W[ff]
C[Alast [12k\]: i meant
tuerda [1d\]: but yes markjgc the base of the F17 stones is sort of an issue
maciek [2d\]: my move^^!
LawNinja [11k\]: i would let white build this wall, and then play k16 :p
Alast [12k\]: hm, seems white thinks like me :D
]
;B[kc]
C[DanceNGo [1d\]: lol owned
rsun [2d\]: k17
beerslayer [-\]: btw ill add my thanks in advance to jennie for being kind enough to relay this game for us
cutter [2k\]: theres alot of gaps in w's top moyo tho
Alast [12k\]: hehe, LawNinja against me :D
]
(;W[kd]
C[Magister7 [7k\]: w should resign
Jennie [2p\]: eh, this direction
tuerda [1d\]: top not really territory, just sorta pretends like it is going to become one
maciek [2d\]: white use his wall to take territory, thats why i didnt like c11 idea
Jennie [2p\]: i thought he would play K17 instead
]
;B[lb];W[jc];B[ld]
C[beerslayer [-\]: O_O
maciek [2d\]: ko!
rsun [2d\]: b l18 instead of atari?
Jennie [2p\]: L18, go crazy :)
tuerda [1d\]: I wonder if black can get away with a move like M3 soon
Jennie [2p\]: this ko is too heavy for white
ikami [5d\]: k18 ?
Jennie [2p\]: K18 is better
maciek [2d\]: ah..
maciek [2d\]: ah i see no follow up for my doublke ponnuki if i win a ko
Magister7 [7k\]: what do you mean by "ko is heavy"?
beerslayer [-\]: oh i had been thinking k16 but i guess k18 is okay because it has the one extra liberty
Mdx [7k\]: catasthrofe if lost
Moiraine7 [4k\]: means if you lose the ko you're owned
Moiraine7 [4k\]: = heavy
kostuek [-\]: but ponnuki 30 pts each
Magister7 [7k\]: ah
Magister7 [7k\]: ty
cutter [2k\]: a ponnuki on an empty board where it captured a stone yes
]
;W[jb]
C[markjgc [15k\]: is the double hane at the top safe?
maciek [2d\]: i think white is ahead about 5-10 points now
muvick [2k\]: why m18 
tuerda [1d\]: what would you suggest instead muvick?
shu123 [21k\]: hi
ikami [5d\]: l18 insted
muvick [2k\]: l18
rsun [2d\]: I suggest l18
largehc [1k?\]: that's gote
shu123 [21k\]: fdhfh
shu123 [21k\]: cgn
shu123 [21k\]: ng
]
(;B[ke];W[jd];B[nh];W[oh];B[oi]
C[Jennie [2p\]: he played this
]
(;W[ph]
C[maciek [2d\]: q12 is my move^^
Jennie [2p\]: real game
];B[nj]
C[maciek [2d\]: n11 n9 p10 o9 p9 ?
tuerda [1d\]: I dont see killer sequence fo black here
tuerda [1d\]: but some reduction is certain
jeffbot [4d\]: I'm so confused. what happened in the real game?
Jinni [3k\]: q10?
mentat [3k\]:  this
polonius [10k\]: this is real game
Jennie [2p\]: yes
maciek [2d\]: just n11
Jennie [2p\]: what if white connects?
maciek [2d\]: maybe o9
tuerda [1d\]: I think w can connect and still be OK
mentat [3k\]: black cuts
]
(;W[mi]
C[tuerda [1d\]: then seems b has P9
Jennie [2p\]: he connected
Jennie [2p\]: how so save him
symplicity [1d?\]: if so, maybe white should have exchanged it earlier
tuerda [1d\]: so b is looking at P9 I suppose
Jennie [2p\]: white has no choice
Jennie [2p\]: this area has that bad aji forever
Jennie [2p\]: black is still thinking 
tuerda [1d\]: critical move!
]
(;B[mk];W[oj];B[nk]
C[tuerda [1d\]: heh
Jinni [3k\]: miss
polonius [10k\]: buu
largehc [1k?\]: wait, this happened? lol
tuerda [1d\]: b did not see p9 sequence?
]
;W[ok]
C[Jennie [2p\]: hmm
Javaness [2d\]: how annoying
Jennie [2p\]: how annoying
Jennie [2p\]: why not eat
Javaness [2d\]: is the M12 wedge a problem?
]
;B[fd];W[gd];B[ec];W[fb];B[eb];W[ea];B[rd];W[cb]
C[tuerda [1d\]: I guess b missed
Jennie [2p\]: he gets sente
Jennie [2p\]: maybe he thought that was good enough
Wagaboo [8k\]: hi
]
;B[bc];W[re]
C[Jinni [3k\]: hello
USGO1 [-\]: W down to 1m BT left
];B[lr]
C[Jennie [2p\]: black is still ahead
];W[kr]
C[blackstork [?\]: Has b some bad aji around about c10 and c7?
profan [7k?\]: m2?
profan [7k?\]: m3?
profan [7k?\]: then h2?
tuerda [1d\]: M3 M4 and b must connect L5 t O5
ikami [5d\]: k2 maybe?
Javaness [2d\]: T15 looks mean
Javaness [2d\]: F9 maybe
]
(;B[fr];W[gr];B[er]
C[markjgc [15k\]: I thinkb will play e6 at some point
];W[dl]
C[True [1k\]: s4 looks big
Jennie [2p\]: here it comes
Mdx [7k\]: ahauhau
]
(;B[cl];W[dj];B[ck];W[ek];B[dm]
C[tuerda [1d\]: b can stay connected vs that cut no?
Jennie [2p\]: he didn't annoy you 
Jennie [2p\]: he did this :)
]
;W[bb];B[ab]
C[nasnad [2d\]: who is ahead?
Jennie [2p\]: close
nasnad [2d\]: a18 was very big
Wagaboo [8k\]: does g17 give aji to attack white?
Koons [1k\]: peep
]
;W[lq]
C[Jennie [2p\]: big
maciek [2d\]: i think white is about 5 points ahead
USGO1 [-\]:  W DOWN TO 3X.45
]
(;B[mr];W[lf]
C[Jennie [2p\]: real game
Jennie [2p\]: hmm
polonius [10k\]: w is playing like a rui wang
]
(;B[el]
C[elohimmeth [2d\]: looks like bigger than A18 ?
];W[cj];B[bj]LB[fe:1][ge:2][ef:3][fg:4]
C[Jennie [2p\]: 1-4 black's sente
];W[di];B[ch];W[hq]
C[Jennie [2p\]: hmm
];B[fk];W[fj]
(;B[fe];W[ge];B[gc];W[gb];B[hc]
(;W[dc]
C[maciek [2d\]: emotions will be crucial now
Jennie [2p\]: what the hell
Jennie [2p\]: crazy
Aur [1d\]: b screwed
]
;B[ed]
C[Aur [1d\]: >.>
];W[cd]LB[ef:A]
C[cutter [2k\]: this real game?
maciek [2d\]: big ko is coming
Jennie [2p\]: yes
Javaness [2d\]: where is his brain?
hailthorn [15k\]: Wow
Wagaboo [8k\]: if b h18 w is in trouble
Jennie [2p\]: black didn't play A first
cutter [2k\]: ouchies for b
compendium [?\]: b still has time to play A
Jennie [2p\]: no time now
maciek [2d\]: b16 for white
maciek [2d\]: i think black will play d19 c19 b19 now
Lylairl [1k\]: uh oh...?
compendium [?\]: where should b play instead?
Jennie [2p\]: now
]
(;B[bd];W[ce];B[de]
(;W[hb]
C[Aur [1d\]: wait
Jennie [2p\]: white played here in real game
Jennie [2p\]: stop fighting
Aur [1d\]: this feels so all in
]
;B[da]
C[polonius [10k\]: koooo
];W[ca];B[ba]
C[Jennie [2p\]: black started the ko
Jennie [2p\]: funny
Aur [1d\]: q11
]
;W[aa];B[pi]
C[Jennie [2p\]: this is a big threat
];W[qi];B[ba];W[kj]
C[maciek [2d\]: white have a lot of ko threats too
];B[jj];W[aa];B[pj];W[pk]
;B[ba];W[bi]
C[Aur [1d\]: ignore?
tuerda [1d\]: no way
Jinni [3k\]: no
Wagaboo [8k\]: no
Jennie [2p\]: can't ignore
Aur [1d\]: ignore of doom
Jennie [2p\]: the real game si still here
Jinni [3k\]: d13 a threat
Jennie [2p\]: if black ignore
Jennie [2p\]: still thinking
]
(;B[da]
C[Jennie [2p\]: good
tuerda [1d\]: OMG
Jinni [3k\]: wow
tuerda [1d\]: leave it to pro counting
Aur [1d\]: I was right >.>
tuerda [1d\]: to me this is astonishing
Jennie [2p\]: is this annoying Java?
symplicity [1d?\]: black ahead by a few points?
Jennie [2p\]: yea
kostuek [-\]: this is sparta
jeffbot [4d\]: b can still punch through w with G14
USGO1 [-\]: w down to 2x.45
]
;W[nc];B[nb]
C[Jennie [2p\]: timesuji
symplicity [1d?\]: my counting not great, but I get something like 4 +/- 5 for black is my estmate
maciek [2d\]: i still think whitw will win:-)
ikami [5d\]: komi is 8pts
Aur [1d\]: b needs to get s4
tuerda [1d\]: "I win by four points plus or minus five"
]
;W[ef]
C[Jennie [2p\]: oh
maciek [2d\]: because black loses his lovely cash on the left, psychologically its good for white^^
Jennie [2p\]: this 
jeffbot [4d\]: oh man, this is bad
]
;B[bk]
C[Jennie [2p\]: white just lost for nothing
tuerda [1d\]: this would not inspire me with much confidence
tuerda [1d\]: ok, white officially pwnd now
Jinni [3k\]: its close
maciek [2d\]: oh:((
Jinni [3k\]: well not after that
]
;W[nm]
C[maciek [2d\]: looks like the end of the game now
Aur [1d\]: I'm still rooting for w
Jennie [2p\]: now it's over for sure
Wagaboo [8k\]: b has won
tuerda [1d\]: it seems inexplicable to me that white would not b9
fly [1d\]: time pressure
jeffbot [4d\]: cold feet
USGO1 [-\]: b down to 5m BT
Wagaboo [8k\]: what is a timesuji?
Daisey [1k\]: lol
maciek [2d\]: a move played to  avoid a loss of byo
Jennie [2p\]: sente to get time in boyomi
Magister7 [7k\]: don't laugh daisey
tuerda [1d\]: so fly, you say w said: "oh dear, the clock is ticking so instead of playing the obvious move I threatened to play a while back, I am instead going to play this irrational gte at E14?"
Wagaboo [8k\]: ok thx
fly [1d\]: tuerda: lol... no... more like, "yikes! yikes! time's almost up! I gotta play NOW!"
maciek [2d\]: but wait...
fly [1d\]: (and forgot b9 since it was so obvious)
]
;B[hm]
C[maciek [2d\]: its still even game^^
Jennie [2p\]: black is winning
polonius [10k\]: what's the point of making a ko threat if you don't follow up
tuerda [1d\]: so this would be my reaction: "yikes! yikes! time's almost up! I gotta play b9 NOW!"
Jennie [2p\]: but not that much, 
maciek [2d\]: even = +-5 points:-D
]
;W[rp]
C[Daisey [1k\]: 5 points is a rather large gap in a high dan game imo
Magister7 [7k\]: h7 seems like wasted move
maciek [2d\]: s4 big!
cutter [2k\]: t15 looking big
Jennie [2p\]: 10 points on the board
maciek [2d\]: bigger than h7
icanflylol [5k\]: thats according to hikaru no go
joenosai [4k\]: hello Jennie
]
;B[se]
C[fly [1d\]: 10 on the board minus the 8 komi?
];W[sf]
C[snowmen [3d\]: maybe white ahead
polonius [10k\]: why is komi 8?
];B[sd]
C[maciek [2d\]: white is 7.5
maciek [2d\]: komi
];W[rf]
C[Jennie [2p\]: E10 now
]
(;B[kg]
C[Jennie [2p\]: real game
cutter [2k\]: they also take back their moves! cheaters
Jennie [2p\]: timesuji :)
]
;W[kf];B[gf]
C[hailthorn [15k\]: lol
];W[gg]
C[Fratloev [2k\]: what do you think about black J1 ?
Javaness [2d\]: white is annoying black
Magister7 [7k\]: i like b j1
maciek [2d\]: l1 sente play is better for black than j1
]
;B[gj]
C[tuerda [1d\]: I think J1 is ko fratloev
cutter [2k\]: sente worth the extra points
]
;W[gk];B[ej];W[fi]
C[tuerda [1d\]: and considering black can get a prettyy nice result with just L1 I dont see why you would want the ko either
]
;B[hf];W[hd]
C[fly [1d\]: b is up to something
Daisey [1k\]: this looks strange
];B[gi]
C[cutter [2k\]: looks like hes trying to make j12 work
loosing [?\]: is he hinting at the j11 group?
Jinni [3k\]: nothing
icanflylol [5k\]: ko
]
;W[hg]
C[Daisey [1k\]: magice ko?
];B[eg];W[fh];B[gl]
C[Jennie [2p\]: nice sequence
];W[hj]
C[symplicity [1d?\]: black win by 5ish?
];B[ks];W[js];B[ls]
C[Daisey [1k\]: alittle more it feels
Daisey [1k\]: but i didnt count
];W[jr]
C[Lylairl [1k\]: e13 and g8 in sente
Lylairl [1k\]: ><
symplicity [1d?\]: and J8 too
Daisey [1k\]: and j8
Lylairl [1k\]: lol yea
]
;B[sr]
C[Lylairl [1k\]: no t3?
];W[gm];B[fl];W[gn]
C[maciek [2d\]: g7 and white is back in the game!
Lylairl [1k\]: i still think b is leading
Magister7 [7k\]: not really
Jinni [3k\]: still down
Magister7 [7k\]: b still killing
loosing [?\]: ah, the order of moves, how it can turn the tide
jeffbot [4d\]: are you ok maciek?
Lylairl [1k\]: well SE says b+16....
Lylairl [1k\]: lol
symplicity [1d?\]: haha SE
]
;B[il]
C[Lylairl [1k\]: :P
];W[ih]
C[maciek [2d\]: :)
maciek [2d\]: i am kibitzing white
];B[li]
C[giedrius [11k\]: what a SE?
];W[qj]
C[giedrius [11k\]: :)
maciek [2d\]: cause there is a Jennie photo:-)
];B[lg]
C[eatramen [16k\]: score estimator
Magister7 [7k\]: score estimator
];W[qd]
;B[rc]
C[Lake [10k\]: doom machine
giedrius [11k\]: AH,OK.:)
Magister7 [7k\]: why b not l9
polonius [10k\]: south east
Magister7 [7k\]: L9
Lylairl [1k\]: Xp
]
;W[ng]
C[Magister7 [7k\]: sente
];B[mg];W[mf];B[pd];W[pe]
C[Smochi [2k\]: it would lose 2 ko threats?
];B[md]
C[Lylairl [1k\]: l9
];W[me]
C[Lylairl [1k\]: plz
polonius [10k\]: no
];B[io];W[ho];B[in];W[ip]
C[symplicity [1d?\]: J5 not unexpected, but cute
Magister7 [7k\]: why doesn't b L9?
WhoRYou [3k\]: wasn't h5 better then j5?
killuah [4k\]: e6 big for w?
]
;B[kk]
C[Magister7 [7k\]: thank you
];W[oi]
C[Lylairl [1k\]: B win I belive
maciek [2d\]: white will iwn!:_)
];B[do]
C[Lylairl [1k\]: Lol
Lylairl [1k\]: m6?
];W[kb]
C[giedrius [11k\]: game by 0,5 point....
Lylairl [1k\]: no
Lylairl [1k\]: theres no .5
giedrius [11k\]: ok...
Lylairl [1k\]: +8 komi
loosing [?\]: oh, there can be a tie
polonius [10k\]: why is komi so big?
Lylairl [1k\]: no idea...
fly [1d\]: no tie... there are an odd number of intersections
Wrenn [1d\]: 8 komi = 7.5 komi but ties allowed :P
loosing [?\]: chinese rules?
]
;B[mm]
C[polonius [10k\]: Wrenn wouldn't that be 7 komi
Jennie [2p\]: M19 the bigger than this
Wrenn [1d\]: 7.5 is the same as 8 :)
Wrenn [1d\]: if it is 61.5 to 61
Lylairl [1k\]: not rly..
Wrenn [1d\]: that is the same as 62 to 61 functionally :)
Feminist [7k\]: its not the same
MrPopCorn [7k\]: closed game
]
;W[en]
C[Lylairl [1k\]: 7.5 no tie possibility
Wrenn [1d\]: except for tie allowal :)
polonius [10k\]: 7.5 is the same as 7 but w wins ties
Wrenn [1d\]: I said that, you people do not read :)
ZothOmmog [4k\]: diff is b wins 7.5 while tie with 8
tuerda [1d\]: no tie possibility with chinese rules and 8 komi either
Jennie [2p\]: P7
tuerda [1d\]: because every intersection will be a point for someone
Smochi [2k\]: it's possible if there's a seki
]
;B[om]
C[Lylairl [1k\]: wow
tuerda [1d\]: hmmm
Javaness [2d\]: why doesn't black eat E19?
fly [1d\]: lol
]
;W[ol]
C[tuerda [1d\]: I guess smochi right
symplicity [1d?\]: unless you have seki with odd # dame, yes
Jennie [2p\]: q7
Lylairl [1k\]: Is this endgame technique?
tuerda [1d\]: you would need a seki with odd dame
Magister7 [7k\]: holy smokes!! score estimator has it as an exact tie!!!
ZothOmmog [4k\]: how is that possible?
fly [1d\]: oh... for t4
tuerda [1d\]: which basically means a seki with eyes
ZothOmmog [4k\]: dame reduces to 2 for seki
Lylairl [1k\]: SE is silly
]
;B[pm]
C[ZothOmmog [4k\]: dont eyes count as points?
Lylairl [1k\]: they do
];W[rn]
C[Lylairl [1k\]: I think
ZothOmmog [4k\]: then no diff
];B[sp]
C[loosing [?\]: is this aga or chinese rules?
];W[la]
C[maciek [2d\]: very very nice
polonius [10k\]: nice
ZothOmmog [4k\]: both players need 1 eye for seki
Lylairl [1k\]: check rules
tuerda [1d\]: but an even number of dame is not possible without eyes zothommog
]
;B[sq];W[qm]
C[ihatelag [8k\]: new zealand
];B[so]
C[fly [1d\]: b wins!
polonius [10k\]: probably aga rules
Lylairl [1k\]: methinks so too
ihatelag [8k\]: newzealand rules same as AGA and Chinese right?
Lylairl [1k\]: check options - game format - rules
loosing [?\]: close
Lylairl [1k\]: or something
Wagaboo [8k\]: cause of w b11
]
;W[ma]
C[tuerda [1d\]: all 3 rulesets subtle diffeences ihatelag
];B[na];W[ka];B[ro]
;W[qn]
C[ihatelag [8k\]: yeah, but i'm not sure what they are
ihatelag [8k\]: but its basically them same
]
;B[fa]
C[ihatelag [8k\]: *the
loosing [?\]: see sensei's page for diff
tuerda [1d\]: most famous difference is suicide is legal under new zealand rules
polonius [10k\]: are they actually using new zealand rules?
killuah [4k\]: 6t was sente, why didnt b play it?
polonius [10k\]: do the players know this? :)
ihatelag [8k\]: oh nice lol
Wrenn [1d\]: look at the game info :)
]
;W[dn]
C[ZothOmmog [4k\]: yep
ZothOmmog [4k\]: nz rules
];B[eo]
C[Alast [12k\]: why could one want to play suicide?
tuerda [1d\]: do fractional points in seki still exist under nz rules?
Lylairl [1k\]: ko threat
tuerda [1d\]: because that could explain integer komi
ZothOmmog [4k\]: it rules thr 9 rings of men, 7.5 of dwarves and 3.3333... of elves
]
;W[fo];B[co]
C[elementc [2d?\]: if you could play a suicide move you could kill groups that are impossible to kill in the normal rules
fly [1d\]: why not t6?
polonius [10k\]: your own groups :)
elementc [2d?\]: the enemies groups
killuah [4k\]: ?
ZothOmmog [4k\]: nah, threat to kill other group
killuah [4k\]: explain
Wrenn [1d\]: at least as ko threats :P
]
;W[lc];B[ob]
C[Wrenn [1d\]: take a rectangle six in the corner :)
WhoRYou [3k\]: don't think there is a shape like this..
Smochi [2k\]: if there's an oshitsubushi
killuah [4k\]: i think nz only allow more ko threads
elementc [2d?\]: there are many life and death problems that let you live because the opponent can't connect inside...
Wrenn [1d\]: with two outside liberties :)
elementc [2d?\]: if he could connect and make a dead shape
tuerda [1d\]: you have to realize whose turn it would be elementc
elementc [2d?\]: it'd change everything
elementc [2d?\]: no
]
;W[lo]
C[elementc [2d?\]: !!
zzz [2k\]: b+1
];B[ln]
C[elementc [2d?\]: don't batter me with logic
tuerda [1d\]: haha
];W[mo]
C[icanflylol [5k\]: loll fail
killuah [4k\]: can u send me a link to a problem
killuah [4k\]: ?
fly [1d\]: why not t6??
WhoRYou [3k\]: what shape will it be good to sucide?
Wrenn [1d\]: killuah, I will make a demo :)
tuerda [1d\]: there actually are known positions where the situation is different
Alast [12k\]: yeah, i dont see that
tuerda [1d\]: but they are very very rare
symplicity [1d?\]: yes, but with oshitsubushi there is a ko threat if you allow suicide
]
;B[sn]
C[WhoRYou [3k\]: can\\t think of 1 that is alive, and suciding will kill..
]
;W[sm]
C[ihatelag [8k\]: wow i thought suicide is only for ko battles
symplicity [1d?\]: without suicide, no ko threat
]
;B[mq]
C[ZothOmmog [4k\]: threat to kill, not autokill
];W[mn]
C[polonius [10k\]: not too many dead shapes...
];B[ml]
C[tuerda [1d\]: there are positions where live groups become dead and vice versa in new zealand rules
Wrenn [1d\]: yes, suicide is for ko fights :P
tuerda [1d\]: but I have only seen about 3 of them
tuerda [1d\]: ever
Wrenn [1d\]: also it changes the auto-dead bent four :)
ZothOmmog [4k\]: thats more common
Wrenn [1d\]: because there are irremovable ko threats with suicide :)
tuerda [1d\]: bent four is still the same I think
]
;W[fs]
C[tuerda [1d\]: oh yes
Wrenn [1d\]: nope, you must play it out :)
];B[es]
C[symplicity [1d?\]: there are irremovable ko threats with seki too
];W[gs]
C[Wrenn [1d\]: yes
tuerda [1d\]: there are often unremovable ko threats in other ways
tuerda [1d\]: like seki
Lylairl [1k\]: g19?
Wrenn [1d\]: but japanese rules ignore those :) the others do not :)
polonius [10k\]: so is bent four alive with unremovable threats in nz?
Smochi [2k\]: by the way, how does bent four in the corner with unremovable ko threats work under japanese rules?
]
;B[ga];W[ha]
C[Wrenn [1d\]: it needs to be played out :)
Lylairl [1k\]: yay
];B[ea]
C[Smochi [2k\]: do the unremovable ko threats make a difference?
tuerda [1d\]: bent four is ko with unremovable threats under any ruleset other than japanese
cutter [2k\]: what is an unremovable ko threat
]
;W[kc]
C[Wrenn [1d\]: yes, the players spenmd the last m,voes removing all ko threatsd they can
Wrenn [1d\]: then they start the bent four ko
tuerda [1d\]: a threat which cannot be removed cutter
polonius [10k\]: ohh nz has superko
WhoRYou [3k\]: what's unremoveable threats?
polonius [10k\]: so there's no such thing as unremovable threats
Wrenn [1d\]: and suicide for free threat :)
polonius [10k\]: in nz
]
;B[em]
C[Wrenn [1d\]: look at my demo :)
blubb [1d\]: every ko threat is removable, but possibly at a cost
]
;W[fn]
C[tuerda [1d\]: an unremovable threat is a ko threat that cannot be eliminated from the board
polonius [10k\]: nz doesn't allow to repeat board position
ZothOmmog [4k\]: so what about repeated board positions?
ZothOmmog [4k\]: game ends?
tuerda [1d\]: ie: breaking seki
]
;B[dg];W[fg];B[ek]
C[WhoRYou [3k\]: in these rules ur stone is worth a point.. u can remove all ko threats with no regret
Lylairl [1k\]: B+10
cutter [2k\]: thats not really a threat tho
tuerda [1d\]: zothommog, repeated board positions in rulesets with superko are the result of illegal moves
zzz [2k\]: b+2
cutter [2k\]: unless losing the seki is smaller than the ko
tuerda [1d\]: to repeat the position is illegal
]
;W[hn];B[fm]
C[ZothOmmog [4k\]: i see
Lake [10k\]: m4 ?
Borat [4d?\]: white still has a chance ... if black plays o4
loosing [?\]: SE: B+10
ihatelag [8k\]: lol
]
;W[lp];B[nq]
C[eurogotv [-\]: live TV broadcast from the Cotzen Tournament on http://eurogotv.com/index.php?menu=Live&channel=EuroGoTV-US
ihatelag [8k\]: no chance now
tuerda [1d\]: leading to some very hard superko tsumego
Magister7 [7k\]: B + 3
]
;W[np];B[ee]
C[cutter [2k\]: game looks over
cutter [2k\]: only dame left
Lylairl [1k\]: i can't see juyong D:
Lylairl [1k\]: nvm its just the ad
tuerda [1d\]: so b wins
Lylairl [1k\]: pretty much
Jennie [2p\]: 2.5
ZothOmmog [4k\]: 2
Lylairl [1k\]: o-o
Jennie [2p\]: b
Lylairl [1k\]: 2?
Lylairl [1k\]: its 8 komi, no?
Magister7 [7k\]: 3
cutter [2k\]: 2.5
ZothOmmog [4k\]: 2.1
cutter [2k\]: 7.5 komi
Lylairl [1k\]: o
ihatelag [8k\]: 8
zzz [2k\]: SE works only for Japanese rules
cutter [2k\]: jennie already said
zphex [4k\]: what rule is this played with
maciek [2d\]: Thanks a lot Jennie, it was a great commentary!
tuerda [1d\]: indeed
tuerda [1d\]: very interesting
giedrius [11k\]: Thanks Jennie!
croc [5d\]: final score?
sweety [-\]: Thank you Jennie~
MrPopCorn [7k\]: Thanks Jennie
Jennie [2p\]: lunch
tuerda [1d\]: b misread in P11 area very surprising
zphex [4k\]: lol
Lylairl [1k\]: Thank you!
cutter [2k\]: lunch mmm
Jennie [2p\]: see you guys later in the afternoon at round 2
Mot [3k\]: merci Jennie
cutter [2k\]: sounds good
Lylairl [1k\]: bye!
Magister7 [7k\]: final score?
zzz [2k\]: b+2.5
tuerda [1d\]: black by 2.5
ZothOmmog [4k\]: wheres the .5 from?
Wrenn [1d\]: where is the .5 from?
Javaness [2d\]: thanks Jennie
cutter [2k\]: komi
maciek [2d\]: the afternoon is for how many hours?
ZothOmmog [4k\]: komi says 8
giedrius [11k\]: 7.5
tuerda [1d\]: apparently the 8 komi was just lying
cutter [2k\]: yep
ZothOmmog [4k\]: go always lies to me
cutter [2k\]: me too :(
Lylairl [1k\]: lol
ZothOmmog [4k\]: but I keep coming back :(
ZothOmmog [4k\]: WHY?!
Lylairl [1k\]: its seducing you ;\]
ZothOmmog [4k\]: stupid sexy go
cutter [2k\]: cuz your a masochist
Lylairl [1k\]: xD
cutter [2k\]: glutton for punishment
ZothOmmog [4k\]: but look at those stones!
]
)
(;B[ej];W[gj];B[gf];W[he];B[eg];W[fg];B[dg];W[fh];B[ks];W[js];B[ls];W[jr]
C[Fratloev [2k\]: j1 ?
];B[kg];W[kf];B[sq];W[sp];B[sr]
C[Wrenn [1d\]: r17 is sente
fly [1d\]: wow! they play fast!
cutter [2k\]: lol
]
))
(;B[bk]
C[Jinni [3k\]: crazy talk
polonius [10k\]: b still thinking whether to ignore
]
;W[aa];B[qj];W[rj];B[ba];W[nc]
C[maciek [2d\]: o17 is good threat too
maciek [2d\]: yes^^
];B[nb];W[aa]
C[Wagaboo [8k\]: or... yes ignore
];B[kk];W[qk];B[ba]
C[maciek [2d\]: n7 is a threat too
])
(;B[da]
C[Wagaboo [8k\]: b can gnore no?
];W[bk];B[gf];W[hf]
C[tuerda [1d\]: b wondering "how did I get into this mess?"
];B[gg]
C[tuerda [1d\]: omg!
];W[he];B[fg]
C[Alast [12k\]: hehe
maciek [2d\]: b12 
Aur [1d\]: needs to b12 first?
Jennie [2p\]: black wins
Aur [1d\]: ^
]
))
(;W[be];B[da];W[ad];B[hb]
C[Jennie [2p\]: this way
Jennie [2p\]: who wins
Alast [12k\]: w
cutter [2k\]: taking that corner is big
ZoOo2D [2d\]: b is ehead ?
Lake [10k\]: but white potato moyo will be ruined
Wagaboo [8k\]: b corner is ruined too
laughable [13k?\]: potato moyo? which is that?
Jennie [2p\]: i think white should do this
Jennie [2p\]: this way white is ahead a little
Aur [1d\]: b will win ko
Aur [1d\]: >.>
Lake [10k\]: around h13
]
))
(;B[bd];W[ce];B[de];W[be];B[da]
(;W[ad];B[hb]
C[Jennie [2p\]: feels like white got more
Jennie [2p\]: if this
cutter [2k\]: w avoid ko?
]
)
(;W[ca];B[ba]
C[Jennie [2p\]: this ko
cutter [2k\]: ya
jeffbot [4d\]: q11 threats
Jennie [2p\]: yes
Aur [1d\]: in real game
Jennie [2p\]: q11
Aur [1d\]: w chose not to play
]
)))
(;W[hb];B[gf]
C[Jennie [2p\]: his happy var is this
compendium [?\]: i meant, in that position
Jennie [2p\]: but he ignored white's attack
]
))
(;B[ej];W[gj];B[fe]
C[kostuek [-\]: crazy stuff real game
];W[ge];B[ef];W[fg];B[se];W[sf];B[sd]
;W[rf];B[rp];W[ro];B[sq]
C[tuerda [1d\]: b leads
polonius [10k\]: ooh look at the real game
Jennie [2p\]: close
cutter [2k\]: b+2
]
))
(;B[hr]
C[Jennie [2p\]: what about this
True [1k\]: yikes
True [1k\]: w g3
Jennie [2p\]: it's bigger than M14
True [1k\]: ?
tuerda [1d\]: dangerous
Javaness [2d\]: so big
]
(;W[gs];B[gq];W[hq];B[gp]
C[True [1k\]: uh oh
])
(;W[gq];B[gs]
C[maciek [2d\]: g3 a must
tuerda [1d\]: very large
])))
(;B[mr];W[hq]
C[Jennie [2p\]: if this
tuerda [1d\]: t15 for black now?
];B[fe];W[ge];B[ef]
;W[fg]
C[Borat [4d?\]: surprised black didn't play m3 himself ..
];B[rp];W[ro];B[sq]
C[Javaness [2d\]: how annoying
True [1k\]: i thot black would
True [1k\]: m3 - l2  m4
Koons [1k\]: what annoys squirrel tonight?
tuerda [1d\]: isnt m4 sente for w though?
tuerda [1d\]: threatenning N7?
Javaness [2d\]: white is playing like a raven
tuerda [1d\]: nevermore?
Jennie [2p\]: black is a little ahead this like this
]
))
(;B[cl]
C[Javaness [2d\]: take it away
];W[ck]
C[Jennie [2p\]: is this annoying javaness?
maciek [2d\]: haha
Javaness [2d\]: i hate it
Eraser [2d\]: D10
]
))
(;B[lq];W[dl];B[cl];W[dj]
C[tuerda [1d\]: hmmm
Jennie [2p\]: something like this on the left
];B[ck]
;W[ek]
C[tuerda [1d\]: M4 not sente?
tuerda [1d\]: for white?
Jennie [2p\]: white can get points
]
))
(;B[ok]
C[largehc [1k?\]: hehe
polonius [10k\]: how annoying, now we have to watch the rest of the game
maciek [2d\]: o9 p10 n9 p8 o7 p7 m12 ?
maligo [4d\]: it is kinda blind spot...
tuerda [1d\]: jennie looking for an error in her reading
tuerda [1d\]: it is a blind spot for you or me maligo, but for this level of player I hope not
Jennie [2p\]: i dont' see it
Jennie [2p\]: still see white died
maciek [2d\]: ah my sequence iis nbot good too
polonius [10k\]: i trust jennie 2p reading more than some guy who got beat up by an 11 year old kid
]
(;W[nk];B[oj]
(;W[mk])
(;W[ol];B[mk];W[pk];B[kj]
C[Jennie [2p\]: this?
largehc [1k?\]: sente!
Javaness [2d\]: black is a good squirrel
tuerda [1d\]: this would be very good result for w no?
tuerda [1d\]: I mean for b
tuerda [1d\]: sorry
Jennie [2p\]: black got so much
]
))
(;W[mk];B[ol]
C[Jennie [2p\]: but this way white dies
maciek [2d\]: m12 for white maybe?
largehc [1k?\]: it's practically game over
tuerda [1d\]: b cannot complain if P11 stone finds life somehow
Wisp [13k\]: was o8  too far from n10 ?
kostuek [-\]: q11 after p9?
symplicity [1d?\]: was O7 sente for white earlier against the M6 conection?
]
;W[nm];B[om]
(;W[lh]
C[Javaness [2d\]: how annoying
];B[lg];W[li];B[mm]
C[RyuuGan [1k\]: l13 
];W[mg];B[ml]
C[maligo [4d\]: o9 p10 first
Javaness [2d\]: very smart
])
(;W[nk];B[oj];W[lh];B[lg];W[li];B[kj]
C[largehc [1k?\]: w can't survive p9
maligo [4d\]: well i didnt see the p9 move at first..
Jennie [2p\]: hehe
Javaness [2d\]: so mean
]
))))
(;W[mi]
C[mentat [3k\]: clean
tuerda [1d\]: this is game?
maciek [2d\]: yes
]
(;B[mk];W[oj];B[nk];W[ok]
C[tuerda [1d\]: yes
tuerda [1d\]: this is my reading
maciek [2d\]: and mine
]
)
(;B[ok]
C[maciek [2d\]: its ok for white i think
Alast [12k\]: very ouch ;)
largehc [1k?\]: nice reading there then
]
;W[mk];B[ol];W[nm];B[om];W[pi]
C[tuerda [1d\]: this also I think is ok for whie
];B[oj];W[pm];B[mm]
C[Jennie [2p\]: white dies
Jennie [2p\]: oops
maciek [2d\]: ah...
maciek [2d\]: haha
tuerda [1d\]: oh yes
ZeroWave [7k\]: ouch
]
)))
(;W[oj];B[og];W[pi]
C[maciek [2d\]: i dont see what black can do here now
];B[pg]
C[tuerda [1d\]: but tis is less damaging
muvick [2k\]: so, k16 was better than k18 
Jennie [2p\]: this won't work for white
]
;W[ng];B[nf];W[mg];B[mf];W[lg];B[lf];W[kg];B[pf];W[oe];B[pe]))
(;B[ke]
C[maciek [2d\]: q12 is my first feeling
];W[jd];B[og]
C[maciek [2d\]: l18 too heavy
Jennie [2p\]: some bad aji here
maciek [2d\]: :))
]
;W[ng];B[nh]
C[tuerda [1d\]: w problems no matter how you look at it
];W[oh]
C[tuerda [1d\]: L18 seems bad shape
];B[pg]
C[maciek [2d\]: oh!
largehc [1k?\]: wow, I was thinking of p13
maciek [2d\]: so its even game
tuerda [1d\]: so lets see actual game
maciek [2d\]: haha
]
;W[ph]
C[largehc [1k?\]: w not gonna get out of this easily
largehc [1k?\]: this doesn't feel as good as p13
Javaness [2d\]: how annoying
]
(;B[nf];W[mg]
(;B[mf];W[lg];B[lf]
C[maciek [2d\]: using this aji to play good yose around r14 maybe?
];W[kg]
C[Mdx [7k\]: ex-white
];B[qg]
C[Magister7 [7k\]: w not gonna get out of this, period.
maciek [2d\]: or eat stones haha
Jennie [2p\]: a problem for white
Magister7 [7k\]: w = deader than ricky martin's career
]
)
(;B[pf]
C[largehc [1k?\]: q15 ?
maciek [2d\]: i can spend 2 mounths read and still not enough;-)
mentat [3k\]: dunno, I'm liking this too
]
(;W[oe];B[lg];W[mf];B[me];W[ne];B[lf];W[nf];B[rf]
C[kostuek [-\]: he didnt play p13
])
(;W[pe];B[mf];W[lg];B[lf]
C[largehc [1k?\]: doesn't seem as bad for w
]))
(;B[qg]
C[maciek [2d\]: this looks like winning sequence
];W[pe];B[lg];W[mf];B[me]
;W[ne];B[lf];W[nf];B[rf];W[re];B[qi]
C[Jennie [2p\]: spend two hours read :)
]))
(;B[qg]
C[Jennie [2p\]: this looks more severe
])))
(;W[jc];B[kd];W[jd];B[jb];W[ib];B[kb]
C[Alast [12k\]: nobody said top is safe for white ;)
]))
(;W[mo]
C[True [1k\]: w can cut?
];B[nn];W[mn]
C[tuerda [1d\]: this is game then?
];B[nm];W[mm]
(;B[ml])
(;B[nl];W[ml];B[mk];W[nk];B[nj];W[ok]
C[True [1k\]: no
];B[ni]
C[Jennie [2p\]: one
Jennie [2p\]: doesn't work for white
True [1k\]: Wow ><
]
))
(;W[mn];B[mo];W[lo];B[ln];W[lp];B[nn];W[mm]
C[Jennie [2p\]: does thsi work?
rsun [2d\]: nope
tuerda [1d\]: no way
cutter [2k\]: no
]
;B[ol]
C[maciek [2d\]: p8
Jennie [2p\]: :)
maciek [2d\]: ah too late^^
True [1k\]: oh my
Manudu92 [1k\]: cool
]
))
(;W[kp];B[no]
C[True [1k\]: lol java
Jennie [2p\]: this can be his follow to link up
debutgow [6k\]: black to n5?
]
))
(;B[nn];W[no]
C[USGO1 [-\]: w: 26
tuerda [1d\]: yes P2 not doing its job as well as it should
]
;B[mn]
C[USGO1 [-\]: b: 38
True [1k\]: wow lol
cutter [2k\]: b still got o5
Jennie [2p\]: you see O2 is useful
Acemi [?\]: they are playing pretty fast
]
;W[nl];B[lp]
C[True [1k\]: That would be game over
]
(;W[lq];B[mq];W[nq]
C[Jennie [2p\]: he has this
tuerda [1d\]: this is probably jennies variation
]
;B[pr];W[mr];B[mo]
C[Jennie [2p\]: pretty funny
cutter [2k\]: b connect
Jennie [2p\]: black can still connect
icanflylol [5k\]: nice
largehc [1k?\]: lol cool
]
)
(;W[nq];B[pr]
C[Alast [12k\]: wow, so far i thought w looks still quite nice
];W[np];B[os]
;W[lq]
C[maciek [2d\]: white could play n6 instead of o5?
Jennie [2p\]: white can cut this way
tuerda [1d\]: uncomfortable to play like this no?
]
;B[kp];W[kq];B[jq]
C[Jennie [2p\]: not very useful the aji is too bad for white here
];W[iq]
;B[jr];W[ir];B[mo];W[mq]
C[cutter [2k\]: that waould hurt
];B[kr])))
(;W[gn];B[nn]
C[Jennie [2p\]: if this
Jennie [2p\]: hard for white to continue the attack
]
)
(;W[mn]))
(;B[hl]
C[Jennie [2p\]: if hane
];W[jj]
C[True [1k\]: uh oh
Manudu92 [1k\]: oh
Manudu92 [1k\]: cut first possible?
]
(;B[kj];W[il]
C[Jennie [2p\]: then cut again
tuerda [1d\]: problems
])
(;B[gk];W[hj];B[im];W[kj];B[fm]
C[tuerda [1d\]: w very satisfied this way no?
Jennie [2p\]: who is happy ?
True [1k\]: w?
tuerda [1d\]: w
Manudu92 [1k\]: B
ZeroWave [7k\]: b
tf [2d\]: b
muvick [2k\]: both ok
GuitarHero [3d\]: hmmm
True [1k\]: b can invade bottom now?
tuerda [1d\]: I feel this is good for w
Jennie [2p\]: yea, both ok
]
)))
(;W[mj]
C[DanceNGo [1d\]: wait, 2p> 7d, correct?
Jennie [2p\]: this one if white nobi here
Jennie [2p\]: it's hard for black to get to the right
]
))
(;B[mj]
C[Jennie [2p\]: i like this better
ZeroWave [7k\]: going for o5 ?
];W[lk]
C[Path [11k\]: 2p > 9d I believe
];B[mk]
C[True [1k\]: w did nobi
];W[kl];B[kk]
C[tuerda [1d\]: white almost certainly nobi no?
];W[li]
C[True [1k\]: Yea
kostuek [-\]: kostuek > 20k
maciek [2d\]: Jennie > any pro!
]
;B[mh];W[ml];B[lm];W[mi];B[ni]
C[True [1k\]: lol
];W[nj];B[nk];W[nh]
C[maciek [2d\]: SO NICE COMMENT!
True [1k\]: xD
];B[oj];W[lh];B[nm]
C[Jennie [2p\]: this doesn't work for white
goyacc [1d\]: uh ho
True [1k\]: this  looks painful
]
))
(;W[lj]
C[tuerda [1d\]: wow!
Jennie [2p\]: one way for white to attack
Jennie [2p\]: it's a vital point
johnny [4k\]: kill...eat!!!
fly [1d\]: yikes
Jennie [2p\]: take eyes
tuerda [1d\]: oh ok, not the game
True [1k\]: k7?
killuah [4k\]: j8?
Jennie [2p\]: he hasn't played yet
Jennie [2p\]: i might choose this one
largehc [1k?\]: m10 doesn't threaten to cut tho
GuitarHero [3d\]: looks like "the waste of the bamboo"
mester [1d\]: someone should whisper m10 to him
tuerda [1d\]: this feels very good
tuerda [1d\]: I like that idea
Jennie [2p\]: he played my first move :)
tuerda [1d\]: oh!
largehc [1k?\]: j8 looks like a cool response
Jennie [2p\]: this one i want to change my idea
Jennie [2p\]: seems too close, black can try to give up stonse
]
;B[mj]
C[Jennie [2p\]: for exampe like this
tuerda [1d\]: ah
fly [1d\]: then what?
Manudu92 [1k\]: why m10?
tuerda [1d\]: many options
]
(;W[li];B[lk]
C[GuitarHero [3d\]: then how does white continue ?
maciek [2d\]: then read...
tuerda [1d\]: very flexible N10
True [1k\]: yea black gets into w's money
Manudu92 [1k\]: dont understand m10... it gives to black many aji
GuitarHero [3d\]: but if white n11
]
)
(;W[mi];B[mk];W[li];B[ni]
C[Jennie [2p\]: it feels like black can turn
tuerda [1d\]: w N10 sort of an all of nothing move
]
))
(;W[nj]
C[Jennie [2p\]: somewhere around this is another way
tuerda [1d\]: also pretty scary
Jennie [2p\]: keep the cash
maciek [2d\]: i like o10
True [1k\]: Black will j9?
Jennie [2p\]: and attack
]
;B[ik];W[hk];B[hl];W[gl]
C[Jennie [2p\]: like this
Jennie [2p\]: one way for white
True [1k\]: ah
]
))
(;B[ll]
C[True [1k\]: w00t
Jennie [2p\]: this is normal shape
];W[hl]
C[DanceNGo [1d\]: lol
johnny [4k\]: ding ding ding we have a winner
];B[oi]
C[GuitarHero [3d\]: o11 ?
GuitarHero [3d\]: oh :)
tuerda [1d\]: well, white getting what he wants
Jennie [2p\]: something like this, it's hard to kill
wjkgs1: must kill???
True [1k\]: or
Jennie [2p\]: black doesn't need to save every stone
tuerda [1d\]: now the question is what to do with the thickness
True [1k\]: make live small
]
))
(;W[jg]
C[killuah [4k\]: l13 is possible, isnt it
Jennie [2p\]: hane is the first feeling
tuerda [1d\]: yes but it looks dangerous
]
;B[ij];W[jj]
C[DanceNGo [1d\]: LOL
Jennie [2p\]: this is not the game
DanceNGo [1d\]: oh
Jennie [2p\]: but this is white's plan i guss
Jennie [2p\]: oh you mean this one
GuitarHero [3d\]: yes
maciek [2d\]: m9?
Jennie [2p\]: hard for both, but white can fight like this for sure
N4KED [2d\]: if black has to make life there then he will be suffering I think
Ceausescu [1k\]: you were right. w tends to be severe
True [1k\]: looks harder on black
]
)
(;W[ih];B[kf]
C[tuerda [1d\]: If w extends I might look for something other than the hane
tsutsui1 [13k\]: jennie u signed my fan at go congress
DanceNGo [1d\]: cant w cut L13?
Jennie [2p\]: this way black comes out, not good for white
tsutsui1 [13k\]: u were with ryo maeda
]
))
(;W[em];B[md]
C[Jennie [2p\]: this side is big because black is also getting big on top
Jennie [2p\]: it's a shared point
maciek [2d\]: yeah
]
)
(;W[fc]
C[Aur [1d\]: jennie
];B[md]
C[Aur [1d\]: how secure would you say the right side is?
Jennie [2p\]: this way you don't know to deal with your F17 or build the moyo
johnny [4k\]: W j17
johnny [4k\]: moyo will be smaller
maciek [2d\]: n16 crucial, and m15 for white too
Jennie [2p\]: it depends, i mean the right side, if black gets strong in the center, black can still invade the right
Jennie [2p\]: not right now
]
))
(;W[cf];B[qg]LB[pe:A][re:B]
C[Jennie [2p\]: locally
Jennie [2p\]: black has A B to link up
Javaness [2d\]: black is being annoying
ZoOo2D [2d\]: what about p14 to protect ?
]
(;W[qf];B[pg];W[of]
C[AetherSoul [4k\]: lol java
];B[qj]
C[AetherSoul [4k\]: such professional terms
Jennie [2p\]: then black has a base
True [1k\]: Yes but black spent extra move to be annoying java o:
maciek [2d\]: yeah nice base
]
)
(;W[qi]
(;B[pe]
C[maciek [2d\]: r14 is much more worse than r13?
];W[pd];B[qd];W[pf];B[re]
C[Jennie [2p\]: easy to connect
])
(;B[of]
C[Jennie [2p\]: also this peep is annoying
Jennie [2p\]: it makes white heavy
]
))))
(;W[no];B[oo];W[on]
C[True [1k\]: ah
];B[oq];W[pn]
C[Jennie [2p\]: normal joseki
];B[md]
C[Jennie [2p\]: this way
Jennie [2p\]: if white just builds one terrtory, it's not good enough
]
;W[me];B[le];W[mf];B[lf]
C[Jennie [2p\]: black is also getting big
];W[mg];B[lg]
C[True [1k\]: cool
Jennie [2p\]: the right side is not that big
Jennie [2p\]: but black has more potential 
]
))
(;W[pp]
C[Jennie [2p\]: i think this is better
];B[qp];W[po]
C[ZoOo2D [2d\]: had built a wallon q4
];B[rn];W[om]
C[True [1k\]: oo
Jennie [2p\]: continue to build
Jennie [2p\]: white's idea
Jennie [2p\]: but he didn't
kago [1d\]: aww no fighting?
maciek [2d\]: wow its my result^^
Jennie [2p\]: white still has his moyo on both the bottom and the right
]
))
(;W[qp];B[pj];W[qh];B[on]SQ[nd:od][qe][qh]
C[Jennie [2p\]: if this
Jennie [2p\]: who is happy?
kago [1d\]: cash
Ferushen [5k\]: b
ZoOo2D [2d\]: black
ZeroWave [7k\]: b
maciek [2d\]: both:-)
Jennie [2p\]: i like black if it's like this
GuitarHero [3d\]: q5 and pincer, is better ?
Jennie [2p\]: the upper right white stones are not efficient
]
))

